INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Tired of racKing your head? Tap in to someone else's experience, just asK for some advice.

INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby 409gary » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:58 am

I am installing a "replica" Cobra intake (from Blue Thunder I believe) on my K Code. This intake appears to be a duplicate of the
factory cast iron intake with the same style carb mounting base (with slots and channels, etc.) As such, I assume I can use the same
carb spacer and mount it in the same manner on the Cobra intake as on the cast iron. That is, with the slots and channels downward
facing the manifold, and the smooth side up facing the Autolite 4100. I hope this is not confusing.
Attached is a link showing the mounting base of the Cobra intake that will be used with the stock spacer & carb. Is this a problem?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332042718394?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
409gary
AttraKted
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:31 am

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby 289kford » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:55 am

You would be correct.
I seem to remember some sort of issue with a repro intakes and vacuum leaks at the carb. I see this is a new product, so it may not have the problem. You may want to Google it though, at least be aware if you have an idle problem.
If there was an issue, I think Branda would mention it.
User avatar
289kford
Kommitted
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:48 am
Location: N.E. Ohio

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby 409gary » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:55 am

Thanks for the reply. The prior posts that I researched "appeared" to be talking about the leaks associated with the
aluminum intakes designed for the Holley carb base. I don't know this for a fact, and that is whay I wanted some
assurance that the Ford "Cobra" design intake would not be an issue with with the Autolite spacer. There were no
instructions or "cautions" with the new intake except to advise the use of sealer on the thermostat housing bolts.
The Blue Thunder Cobra intake is low rise design and is very nice looking (machine work) and appears well made.
Am I correct that the "smooth" side of the spacer should face-upward against the bottom flange of the Autoline 4100?
409gary
AttraKted
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:31 am

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby 289kford » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:00 pm

I have a C9OX aluminum on mine, with the 4100. Smooth side up.
User avatar
289kford
Kommitted
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:48 am
Location: N.E. Ohio

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby zray » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:30 pm

The manifold in the link is not a copy of the Cobra Hi Rise manifold. It is advertised as a "low Rise" manifold. I would be suspecious of any performance advantage claimed for it. Given the choice, I would pass it up in favor of the proven traditional Cobra Hi Rise manifold or it's Blue Thunder reproduction.

As far as leaks go, the Cobra Hi Rise manifold and its blue Thunder reproduction are not compatible with the Ford one inch spacer. As for this "low Rise " manifold, you may or may not need the steel adaptor plate in order to use it with the Autolite one inch spacer.


Z
zray
LunatiK
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby 409gary » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:08 pm

I believe I said the Blue Thunder intake appears to be a duplicate of the factory cast iron intake and that it is a "low rise" design. I am not aware
of anyone making any claim of a performance advantage. I think it may be intended for a low profile hood used on the earlier 260 Cobra roadsters.
I really don't know. However, it is lighter and much better looking than the cast iron Ford intake. It has Ford # C4SZ-9421 casting number on it.
409gary
AttraKted
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:31 am

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby zray » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:23 pm

I'm just stating my opinion, whether it's being solicited or not.

To me, looks & weight savings are secondary reasons for making an expensive manifold change. The Cobra Hi Rise manifold has no problem fitting under the hoods. Given that, and that there is no performance enhancement, I would ALWAYS question why such a modification makes any sense.

Z
zray
LunatiK
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby Dan Case » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:15 pm

The "low rise" aluminum 4V intakes were made by Holman-Moody under their logo, no logo, COBRA logo, and TIGER logo. They were designed in 1961 terms for a 260 c.i.d. engine in a Holman-Moody Falcon raced in European rallies. Holman-Moody logo, no logo, and COBRA logo parts were all used at least once in a new Cobra as a "factory" installation on XHP-260, HP260, or HP289 engine. They were a lighter weight option for Cobras. Based on the first person report of an original Cobra owner (who still owns the car) who ordered one as factory equipment on his HP289 powered Cobra it was a poor performer. More specifically he told me that any kind of aftermarket 289 Ford type high rise 4V worked better. He was qualified to know because he bought the car to race and he did so for many years.

The bad situation is that the original design was intended for a 260 c.i.d engine with a camshaft to suit rally racing, a exhaust system to suit rally racing, and a small volume 4V carburetor circa 1961. The passages are just too small for an otherwise stock 289 in any variant.

In Cobra use a Ford spacer with nipple for crankcase ventilation system was fitted.

This is an original COBRA intake removed from a Cobra factory fitted with it, a 1963 Ford spacer, and the Holley model used in the option package.

Image


The question is, was the remake redesigned to upsize for 289 and larger displacement engines?
Dan Case
Dan Case
AttraKted
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Montana

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby zray » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:32 pm

I don't know about the Blue Thunder Low Rise reproduction, but I DO know that the Blue Thunder reproduction of the Cobra Hi Rise manifold is an improvement over the original Cobra Hi Rise manifold that was stock on the early Shelby GT350's.

Surely the Blue Thunder people can be contacted and resolve this question. Hopefully it's been improved as the Blue Thunder Hi Rise has been. $500+ for an design based on the 260 motor seems excessive.

Appearance wise, with a carb installed the Blue Thunder Hi Rise repro is not an exact copy, but similar in appearance. With the carb off it's easy to see the differences.

Z
zray
LunatiK
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby Dan Case » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:53 pm

The original COBRA lettered parts are very rare. I have seen four of them, a fifth in pictures, and owned two of them. None were on engines. Ditto the Holman-Moody logo, no logo, and the extremely rare TIGER logo versions. They were more dress up than anything else. Cobra wise buyers could get the sand cast COBRA logo rocker covers, intake manifold, and oil pan.

The original pieces are just collector's items it seems as there is almost no market for the COBRA low rise intake other than for display. I have the intake, spacer, carburetor, and distributor for a HP260 powered Cobra and no one is even asking if I would sell or trade anything except the 1962 HP260 mechanical dual point distributor HP260 powered Cobras used.
Dan Case
Dan Case
AttraKted
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Montana

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby SixT5HiPo » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:59 pm

Dan Case wrote:The original COBRA lettered parts are very rare. I have seen four of them, a fifth in pictures, and owned two of them. None were on engines. Ditto the Holman-Moody logo, no logo, and the extremely rare TIGER logo versions. They were more dress up than anything else. Cobra wise buyers could get the sand cast COBRA logo rocker covers, intake manifold, and oil pan.

The original pieces are just collector's items it seems as there is almost no market for the COBRA low rise intake other than for display. I have the intake, spacer, carburetor, and distributor for a HP260 powered Cobra and no one is even asking if I would sell or trade anything except the 1962 HP260 mechanical dual point distributor HP260 powered Cobras used.


Interesting stuff, Dan. I recall posting about a set of Buddy Bar cast TIGER valve covers for sale back in 2012 on eBay that didn't get a single bid. You can see the post HERE.
User avatar
SixT5HiPo
Enforcer!
 
Posts: 6250
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby Dan Case » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:46 am

SixT5HiPo wrote:
Dan Case wrote:The original pieces are just collector's items it seems...


Interesting stuff, Dan. I recall posting about a set of Buddy Bar cast TIGER valve covers for sale back in 2012 on eBay that didn't get a single bid. You can see the post HERE.



Cobra wise, only a few cars powered by either a XHP-260 or HP260 engine, were originally equipped with a low rise aluminum intake manifold. The SAAC Registry gives details. Most of the cars originally fitted with some type 260 c.i.d. engine have had some other engine swapped in. With so few original XHP-260 or HP260 engines or pieces thereof around it is unlikely that Cobras with replacement engines will ever get engines like they had originally. The comments I have come across run along the lines of 'if original is not easy to find I might as well use whatever I want'.
Dan Case
Dan Case
AttraKted
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Montana

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby SixT5HiPo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:35 pm

Those early 260" COBRA engines are little known or documented except in the exclusive SHELBY books...The HP 260 is the "first generation" thin wall small block performance engine that ultimately led to the design and production of the much improved "Fairlane" 289 High Performance engine that was introduced by mid year 1963 .
User avatar
SixT5HiPo
Enforcer!
 
Posts: 6250
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby Dan Case » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:38 am

SixT5HiPo wrote:Those early 260" COBRA engines are little known or documented except in the exclusive SHELBY books...The HP 260 is the "first generation" thin wall small block performance engine that ultimately led to the design and production of the much improved "Fairlane" 289 High Performance engine that was introduced by mid year 1963 .


More is known than widely published. Most of the questions asked that I come across are asked by people building a replica of some sort (Rally Falcon or early Cobra facsimiles mostly). I have met or know or known several owners of early Cobras that originally used some type 260 c.i.d. and none of them have any active interest in the subject of 260 engines. A friend owns a Cobra originally fitted with a HP260. The original engine was replaced during the car's days of SCCA racing. He has some of the original engine and he doesn't have enough interest to clean it up and display it on a stand. I wish there was more interest as I don't have a use for the COBRA intake, spacer, correct carburetor, and distributor that I have for a HP260 powered Cobra. Circa 2008 I was hoping to gather enough parts to assembly a complete engine. I found everything but an engine block (all once used in new Cobras) but the owner just didn't want to sell them.


Engine XHP-260-4 (experimental high performance 260 serial number 4), which started off as serial number 2 and was remarked 4, is mostly intact and unrestored. It was installed in one of the first few new Cobras before being replaced by presumably a HP289 engine. The engine had a few mostly external modifications for use in a Ferrari race car. The Ferrari was raced with the “Cobra” engine. The engine stayed in the Ferrari until a friend of the owner talked him into returning the car to a correct type Ferrari engine. The Cobra engine came out circa 1993 and was stored until I asked Bob Mannel if he would do one of his analysis of the engine.

Bob carefully dismantled the engine and took hundreds of close up photos of details in the manner as he did for his small block Ford V8 engine book. Many of the small parts in the engine were preproduction or prototype parts and very many had individual part serial numbers hand marked on them. Many of the valve train parts are not like any other Ford parts. Some parts appear to be the parents of what would become HP289 parts, connecting rods for example. Even small parts like bearing inserts were preproduction parts. One surprise was how early in 1961 some of the parts were dated.

Bob reassembled the engine. In cases, like gaskets, where originals would have been impossible or impractical to replace with 100% matches he used the closest original Ford parts available. The engine and signs describing some history of the engine and the parts that it was assembled with were on display at one show.


XHP-260 engines were hand built by Ford engineers with many hand built parts, I can only come up with a number of 35 engine made and that is based purely on the serial number of the experimental dual point ignition distributor installed into engine XHP-260-1 that proclaimed it was the 6th of 35 assemblies. Cobra wise I have only come up with serial numbers to XHP-260-14 but record keeping for Cobras in the first six months is not as good as it got later.

HP260s were almost regular production ready engines and Ford made at least 137 of them made (my guess was that at least 200 were made). (There is some evidence that Ford had considered offering a HP260 powered Ford Falcon. Dearborn Steel Tube built a prototype car for Ford testing and that car was road tested by a magazine publisher. For whatever reason or reasons the special option package for Falcons failed to materialize.) I have the original oil pan, rocker arm covers, and cam shaft from HP260 serial number 137. HP260 engine 137 was installed in a new Cobra but replaced by a HP289 soon after. A man bought the barely used engine from one of Shelby’s famous garage sales in the summer of 1964, installed it in a hot rod, and drove the hot rod for almost five decades using it. HP260s are made of mostly Ford production parts. The cylinder head assemblies, connecting rods, the cam shaft and lifters, intake manifold, and ignition distributors are their unique parts. The only parts you can see of course are the iron intake manifolds and Ford production mechanical dual point distributors. I have a HP260 distributor than came out of a Cobra.

The most visible part of a XHP-260 or HP260 engine is the 4V intake manifold. The life time of these engines was roughly between April 1961 (when some unique XHP-260 small parts are dated) and fall of 1962. Quantities of engines were small but development and experimentation was rapid so there are a number of 4V intake manifolds used with these engines. Ford provided a family of cast iron parts. Holman-Moody provided a family of cast aluminum parts which they, Ed Hugus (early Cobras), and Shelby American used as weight reducing options.

From my notes:

The family of intakes (small numbers of several variants used by Ford or Holman-Moody or Hugus or Shelby's companies) were created for Ford XHP-260 and HP260 engines. That means runner and port volumes are sized for racing 260 c.i.d. Ford engines in terms of 1961-62 technology. Every Ford intake for 289 c.i.d. engines has larger runners. There was a final 260-4V version of an intake manifold for Sunbeam Tiger 260 Ford engines offered as an over the counter or aftermarket accessory. The Tiger specific Ford 260 engine assemblies are not the same as HP260 engines.

1st design iron Ford prototype XHP-260 (installed on at least the first eight XHP-260 engines), 260 engine sized ports. Cast in SK 12569 “sketch” engineering number. Sometimes these will have in a second SK prefix engineering number hand stamped in along with a unit serial number. 1962 Fairlane style heater hose port in left front of carburetor location.

2nd design Ford prototype HP260 design iron, ports are 260 engine size. No cast in engineering number. Heater hose port now moved close to coolant outlet somewhat similar to 1963 production 2V and 4V models.

3rd iron Ford version, the production ready HP260 (many more engines were made than most people are aware of) – These are 260 engine size. Cast in identification was a 1962 model year Fairlane engineering number C2O 9425-K (The casting definition is poor where the text is and it is believed the text was suppose to be C20E-9425-K.) and directly above the Fairlane number was a Ford engineering experimental number of XE 10639.


4th cast iron version by Ford, a production HP260 piece, 260 size passages. Cast in identification was a 1962 model year Fairlane engineering number C2OE- 9425-K. The Ford experimental number has been dropped by the time this version was produced. While possible to have been part of a new Cobra engine none have been confirmed.



1st Holman-Moody Rally Falcon HP260 aluminum version with a few different final machining variations during their short life time in use (all aluminum versions based on 2nd iron design and one master mold that got modified permanently for each change), parts are 260 engine size and were machined differently for different applications, Lee Holman believes most went into marine applications. The cast in identification is a Holman-Moody engineering number of HM9424-1.


2nd version aluminum is same as first except HM bird machined off, I don't have a picture of one, still 260 engine size passages, one of these intakes was shown well in a new Cobra road test article in 1963. Again the cast in identification is a Holman-Moody engineering number of HM9424-1. Shelby American registered this style 1-4V intake with the “FIA” 11/30/62 under part number XEO-113.


3rd aluminum version, HM logo replaced with raised rectangular boss, still 260 engine size passages, I have never seen one in person but one was for sale in an ebay® auction in 2013 with the Holman-Moody part number ground off. A Shelby factory advertisement in a magazine article for brand new Ford 260 powered Cobras shows this style with lettering as a decal I believe like racing valve covers had. The magazine article claimed that this was now the stock intake for new 1963 Cobras. As produced and shown in Shelby factory images they have the cast in Holman-Moody engineering identification number of HM9424-1.

4th and final COBRA application aluminum version, still 260 engine size runners, offered and sold as a
regular production option all the way into the completion of CSX24XX chassis (yes with HP289 engines). (Special Note: A first person report by an original Cobra owner indicates they were not suited to any kind of racing on a HP289 engine. The person indicated that every 4V intake of any type or brand made for a 289 sized engine that was tried worked better.) The cast in identification on this COBRA lettered intake included both the Holman-Moody engineering number of HM9424-1 and a new Ford/Shelby C4SA9421 engineering number. The May 1965 parts book lists it under a S1CS-9421 sales part number.



1st TIGER version (sold by Shelby American), for 260 engines, has road draft/PCV port (owner plugged in
this image – Ford/SA sold a steel block off plate that bolted on). The cast in identification on this TIGER lettered intake was the Ford/Shelby C4SA9421 engineering number.


2nd TIGER version (sold by Shelby American), aluminum, still 260 engine size runners, no road draft port
Dan Case
Dan Case
AttraKted
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Montana

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby SixT5HiPo » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:19 pm

WoW...This thread has morphed into a lesson in the legacy of the small block FORD Fairlane engine. I saw that 260HP engine at Carlisle in 2013, and Bob Mannel actually ran the engine for us during the special 50th anniversary of the 289 High Performance engine exhibit.

This history is so interesting because it helps us understand how the development of the engine was achieved. Thanks Dan for posting such a valuable slice of FORD history!
User avatar
SixT5HiPo
Enforcer!
 
Posts: 6250
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby Dan Case » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:20 am

SixT5HiPo wrote:WoW...This thread has morphed into a lesson in the legacy of the small block FORD Fairlane engine. I saw that 260HP engine at Carlisle in 2013, and Bob Mannel actually ran the engine for us during the special 50th anniversary of the 289 High Performance engine exhibit.


This history is so interesting because it helps us understand how the development of the engine was achieved. Thanks Dan for posting such a valuable slice of FORD history!



You are welcome. My notes are pretty much related to Cobra related engines and their details. That is just a piece of the small displacement Non-Boss 302 V8s based on the same architecture. I know little about them but there were the INDY engines based on the production 260 design, a few aluminum 260 engines (basically a HP260 in aluminum block and heads – SAI race tested one in a Cobra), a family of “GT40/Group II” engines with 2-4V or 4-2V induction with one of several different engine block designs plus other race only components, a few experimental overhead cam 289s, the Tunnel Port 302 Group II (Trans Am racing Mustangs fell into Group II) in 1968, the Gurney Westlake cylinder head systems in GT40s circa 1968-69, 325 engines that SAI used in the Pacesetter Lotus and at least one GT40, and the 351 Mirage GT40 engine (that is one of the rarest engines Ford ever made enough of to try to race beyond experimentation).


Of all the racing in mind when designed engine hardware the only widely used components were the Weber 48IDA carburetors, C6FE prefix cylinder head assemblies, and C7FE prefix camshaft.
Dan Case
Dan Case
AttraKted
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Montana

Re: INSTALLING INTAKE MANIFOLD & SPACER

Postby SixT5HiPo » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:58 pm

Dan Case wrote:
SixT5HiPo wrote:WoW...This thread has morphed into a lesson in the legacy of the small block FORD Fairlane engine. I saw that 260HP engine at Carlisle in 2013, and Bob Mannel actually ran the engine for us during the special 50th anniversary of the 289 High Performance engine exhibit.


This history is so interesting because it helps us understand how the development of the engine was achieved. Thanks Dan for posting such a valuable slice of FORD history!



You are welcome. My notes are pretty much related to Cobra related engines and their details. That is just a piece of the small displacement Non-Boss 302 V8s based on the same architecture. I know little about them but there were the INDY engines based on the production 260 design, a few aluminum 260 engines (basically a HP260 in aluminum block and heads – SAI race tested one in a Cobra), a family of “GT40/Group II” engines with 2-4V or 4-2V induction with one of several different engine block designs plus other race only components, a few experimental overhead cam 289s, the Tunnel Port 302 Group II (Trans Am racing Mustangs fell into Group II) in 1968, the Gurney Westlake cylinder head systems in GT40s circa 1968-69, 325 engines that SAI used in the Pacesetter Lotus and at least one GT40, and the 351 Mirage GT40 engine (that is one of the rarest engines Ford ever made enough of to try to race beyond experimentation).


Of all the racing in mind when designed engine hardware the only widely used components were the Weber 48IDA carburetors, C6FE prefix cylinder head assemblies, and C7FE prefix camshaft.


I remember those INDY rear engined small blocks as well. Pretty much "Skunk Works" territory. The OHC 260's were amazing to see! http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/indy.html
User avatar
SixT5HiPo
Enforcer!
 
Posts: 6250
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA


Return to Koncerns & Troubleshooting

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest